So I wasn’t going to write about Thrones until it was over but oh boy the Dany stuff and in a lot of ways the reaction that’s spun up around it. I feel like I have to work some things out and write through it.
WARNING: Spoilers through episode four! FYI there are spoilers about the end that seem to be leaning toward true. I’m not going to talk about them here but just be careful if you’re out there on the Internet.
Disclaimer: If you are enjoying the show and don’t want to hear anything bad about it that’s wonderful! Enjoy it. I get it. No one’s stopping you. Don’t read this. There’s a lot of good things and hard work on this show but for what its worth my biggest problem with the show is and has always been the writing.
And what it might mean for the books but for now this is just about the show.
Dany should have stopped listening to Tyrion long ago.
I found in the last season especially this idea that Dany could be controlled if she listened to Tyrion bloody patronizing at best. The fact that it seems to be coming up again in a different manner is driving me to distraction.
Because she did listen to him. She took his advise first and foremost on her whole invasion and it was an utter disaster an absolute loss (which seemed to consistently benefit his brother and sister and kill and destroy Dany allies that he had personal reason to dislike.)
I assumed when she found out Cersei had screwed them over and the wight hunt and loss of one dragon had happened Tyrion would at least be out of a job but now Jorah vouched for him. Another dragon is killed and he gets her still to agree to try to negotiate with Cersei, again, so she and Grey Worm can watch the horrible execution of the completely innocent Missandei one of the few characters in this show that isn’t even gray!
I was spoiled for this death but I found the most upsetting part seeing her body fall to the ground from the gates. If not for having to look at an up close view of Tyrion’s, “Oh no what is Dany going to do now face.”
How many people is Cersei going to have to kill? Why does everyone consider her going mad? Because Tyrion and Varys say so and Sansa doesn’t like her?
She’s been driven into the ground by the actions of the people around her and yeah I can’t help but feel if this was Arya for instance, if we didn’t have the Mad Queen label being thrown around the reaction would be, “Yes Queen burn it down! Burn it all down!” Is it a thin line between vengeance and madness or is it mostly based on popularity?
Arrest the Lot of Hypocrites
Tyrion and Varys don’t work as the conscious part and definitely not moral men. No matter how golden the show has painted Tyrion and he’s way worse in the book- he knew what a monster Joffrey was and he fought hard and also employed the wildfire in order to keep him on the throne. He also strangled Shae to death. Oh wait she went for the knife on the show… :/
All fair. And people can change of course. But maybe a little navel gazing about the things he had done for power would make this a bit easier to swallow. Maybe if Dany’s losses last season hadn’t benefitted him in any way… At this point Tyrion’s morality has never extended to his family- which maybe shouldn’t be a surprise since the show runners think Tywin was justified at the Red Wedding.
Meanwhile Varys is a mess. Remove Aegon and he’s been pointless the last couple of seasons. He’s jumping ship to Jon but you’re talking about a man who supported Robert, Joffrey, and the Mad King. On the show he says he’s ‘for the realm’ and again without Aegon I think we’re supposed to take him at face value. But who appointed this guy the judge of what’s best for the realm? Any why should we buy it?
There is a part of me that can’t help but think he wants Jon because he knows he’d be a weak King. He pretty much shots down them getting married (ridiculous) because she’d be able to control him. Surely it would be better in Varys mind if Varys was controlling him.
I think that’s what annoys me most. I hate hypocrites and there’s nothing worse than those claiming the moral high ground.
The Claim and the Crazy
Dump his Ass
Without going to far into Mr. I Fail Up as far as I can tell at this point the truth about his paternity, one of the biggest points of the series, and its only purpose has been to be used against Dany.
I see a lot of people who aren’t liking this Mad Queen stuff still saying that her not wanting to give up her claim and be his consort makes her selfish, ambition, unreasonable, etc.
But in show-verse why the hell should she automatically give up her claim? Cersei’s butt is sitting on the throne because she blew up the Sept and took it basically. The incest was fairly well known, Robert’s heirs are dead, she was there and she’s willing to kill for it and no one talks about her “claim.”
Claim has seemed to be based on who has the power to take it. Dany has that power but for some reason, probably because it’s Mr. Perfection where talking about here she’s supposed to lose everything and give it up to him so she can be generous and reasonable?
Also the thing about the Mad Queen “just like her father,” the thing about the Targs was you basically flip a coin with their sanity so why is Jon getting a pass? No one’s worried about his sanity? Aerys was actually apparently fine when he was young. I mean Jon would be his grandson and Rhaeger’s his father with his paternity meaning nothing in the larger war with the White Walkers (so far) dad was pretty much a selfish shit head. Ugh. Yeah but at least it can further isolate and push Dany’s buttons.
So there’s a lot of interesting things to debate in this storyline including why starvation is a better or kinder tactic than a fast strike in one area though she lost the chance for that last season. How many people is Cersei allowed to kill before enough is enough? Is Dany being held to a higher standard than other characters and why?
Will the show actually surprise me even though it never has before? I’m waiting too see how it plays out. I mean what is the Internet for if not over-reacting? 🙂
Don’t get me wrong I knew the Mad Queen could possibly be coming but the way its being done I actually feel sympathy for Dany for the first time since season 2ish! And since I actively wish the Night King had killed pretty much everyone else on the show (besides Ghost and the dragons and poor dumb Gendry) maybe that’s actually a good thing?
And don’t even get me started on the Hound’s comment to Sansa.
Head canon: Dany saves Missandei on Drogon grabs Grey Worm and says, “Fuck these losers let them kill each other,” and has a happy retirement on some tropical island somewhere.
24 thoughts on “GOT: Thoughts and Unpopular Opinions on Dany… Spoilers!”
ooooooooh I have thoughts… But I will have to come back later to share them!!!
I look forward to hearing them. I have a feeling in two weeks there will be a lot to talk about 🙂
I am reserving my disappointment until after the 2 weeks in hopes I won’t have top use it! 😬
My feelings about the writing aside I do hope it’s not disappointing so many people are invested in the characters and even for someone like me who much prefers the books this might still be the only end we ever get so fingers crossed 🙂
I am excited to see the next episode and how it all ends.
Thank you.You too!
I had serious issues with 4. And Missandei… sigh. I have no idea what her book destiny is but I hope Martin does her better than the show did. Good grief. Also, I somehow have the feeling (could totally be wrong) that Dany would NOT negotiate like that w/ Cersei and let her take someone out like that. The first thing Cersei’s liable to see in the books (if she’s still around when Dany shows up) is a dragon over the city breathing fire lol. I could be wrong though… 🙂
Good point about Tyrion. Much more ruthless in the books.
And the “claim” issue I think is handled much better in the books, where Martin actually tries to explore the issue a bit? Is power the only determinant? Who DOES have the best claim? Stannis? Dany? Jon? I still think back to when Renly had the Tyrells and 100,00 men- that was pretty much his criteria lol. The show could be examining this in a more nuanced way rather than just provoking Dany into “mad queen” mode, which is so dumb.
Oh and I’m s over Sandor.
I wouldn’t blame Dany/ Missandei/ Grey Worm if they just went on vacation to Naath or somewhere! Who needs Westeros??
Why is anyone negotiating with Cersei at this point? Or appealing to her humanity? She literally screwed them over on the whole fighting the Army of the dead thing and they said humanity was at stake and she was like lol losers I’m out for that matter why did she kill or stop at killing Missandei when she could have done in Tyrion right then and there if not Dany as well! I swear in the next two episodes if anyone says appeal or negotiate with Cersei I may go mad Queen!
Poor Missandei she and Rhaegal could have gone out in the fight last week with epic deaths and left Dany in the same position. I saw someone point out that Rhaegels death among other things lets Jon off the hook for having to decide whether or not to ride him in a battle against human.
It will likely be worse in the book cause she’s what 12? Maybe Dany will leave her behind? One can hope.
You made a lot of really great points and there is a lot of hate being thrown Dany’s way. She has always been one of my favorite characters and much like you, I actually felt really bad for her. I’m curious to see what she will do now that this “talk” with Cersei has failed miserably.
I just don’t get the mad queen/ crazy stuff people are throwing around plus she hasn’t technically done anything yet except listen to those losers and suffer immense loses. We’ll have to see where this goes but audience and press reaction sometimes fascinates me as much as the actual shows or films people are reacting to.
Aye! You’ve made some excellent points, that I actually agree to! 😉
Even though I was utterly disappointed by the 4th, I am so looking forward to the next one!
At this point I can’t look away 🙂
I hope you enjoy the ending though!
Loved your take. You make some pretty excellent points! Your head cannon though – perfect! lol
I believe they’re deliberately setting Dany up to become the Mad Queen, and they’ve been doing it since the first episode of the season with all the “she’s not her father” talk. Just two episodes left and so many things to cover – I’m beginning to worry we’ll all be sorely disappointed with the ending.
Thanks! They are happy in Naath and no one will convince me otherwise!
I definitely think one of the problems is how fast they’re moving. I can’t help think 10 episodes would have at least helped the pacing 🙂
I completely agree. 6 episodes is a hell of a short span for the final season of such a vast show.
this show is so messed up now Bran is actually the only not annoying Stark right now. Jesus Christ….what the hell with Jaime’s arc….As for Daenerys I too feel sympathy for her so Dumb and Dumber’s grand plan of turning her mad is gonna backfire so bad when people will refuse to see her as villain
Oh man Jaime I mean at this point much as I love NCW and GC whatever Stoneheart does to the characters in the book has to be better than what we got here and pretty much since the moment they cut her.
Such a great discussion- and I have lots of thoughts on it- hope you don’t mind!
I’m having a lot of problems at this stage too. I do get what you mean about her listening to Tyrion (though I will say I think he’s playing the role of Selmy, who is still alive in the books). I do think she is going to take a dark turn in the books- I just think it will make more sense/less at *random intervals*/more sympathetic. Plus I think Tyrion’s character will take a far darker turn in the books; Varys has also been pointless in the show. Basically I have a lot more hope for the books, especially since I admittedly fell out of love with her show counterpart a while ago.
As to whether Dany should give up her claim- I don’t she would in the books and it would be a more justified perspective there (again, I don’t like how the show has handled her- flipflopping from messianic to maniac every two seconds). However, there is a problem with being so invested in the belief in *right to rule* (take Stannis and the mad King for instance- basically every example of this kind of person in Westeros has done terrible things- so it suggests that there has to be a point when you’re willing to give up power). Having said that, I think it would be logical for her character to have been reluctant to give up power, so I feel like her doing this in the book will come across as more *tragic hero does dumb thing* (more like she’ll come across as a Hamlet than a Macbeth). I think part of the problem is they haven’t set it up properly as a fatal flaw. Also, in the context of the show, she’s judging Jon wayyy too harshly- he’s not the one trying to take her power and she should trust him given what he’s given up to bend the knee to her (another part of the problem with this is the fact that they know each other- whereas in the books they could very well be strangers in very different places- and her beef could be with Aegon). Again, this all comes back to the fact I think the showrunners have a loose blueprint/idea where the characters end up and they’re making a mess of getting them there. All this makes me think is how much more I want Winds of winter and a hope for spring!!!
Sorry for the super long comment!
I can’t see book Tyrion attempting to spare his sister for any reason. He’d be kamikazing the red keep with a stolen dragon before he appealed to her ‘humanity.’ 😉
I did see an interesting idea a couple of days ago that they’ve basically switched the two books so even if we’re getting some version of the Mad Queen the bigger battle in the North would be in A Dream of Spring and a chance for Martin to ‘redeem’ her or that’s where the whole Lightbringer prophecy would come into play better? I think a whole lot of people are gonna do some awful things in Winds of Winter and I wonder if Jon’s coming back as quiet so good himself. It should be so much fun!
Enjoy tonights episode 🙂
haha so true!
I think that would make sense- and I originally thought it would go down something like that- I thought the whole mad queen thing would’ve happened in season 7 and then she’d have to get redemption- but it didn’t go down like that, so it threw me for a loop. So yeah, I think that would make a lot of sense. I also don’t think Jon will come back quite like he does- I was really expecting his character to take a darker term (especially cos of what GRRM has said about it)
Thanks, you too!
It was understandable that Tyrion would try to lessen the impact on Jaime and Cersei because family is family after all, it’s very realistic and true to life. I don’t know how it’ll play out in the books though. Tyrion certainly seems much more willing to enact revenge against his sister in the most grotesque ways possible – it’s difficult to root for Tyrion after ADwD. But I do agree that Tyrion fancying him capable of tempering Daenerys is patronising, it’s very white male of him. But again, the onus is also on Daenerys too – Daenerys shouldn’t have trusted Cersei either, there are only so many times Dany can pass the buck.
His ‘bells’ idea was a good one. Very good. The city fell quickly. But, of course, it only works if the character doesn’t have the mass shooter mentality. Because that is very much how she reacted like. It’d would be so… white of us to try and sympathise with her. It’d be interesting to see how the bells play out in the books – I think it will be the bells that set her off too because there was a lot of foreshadowing in the books about what ‘bells’ signify and it’s never anything good. The Stallion that Mounts the World prophecy, I believe, included the bells, and someone on Quora mentioned that the dosh khaleen who gave the prophecy looked horrified.
“She’s been driven into the ground by the actions of the people around her.” I have to respectfully disagree. Please, no. We both know Arya, Sansa, and Jon would never use that as an excuse to unleash horror. It’s victim-blaming as well. This is typically the kind of reasoning that Fox News and other trashy outlets use to cheapen lives lost at the hands of mass shooters and white supremacists. Black people, Muslims, and protected classes suffer in favour of white people because of reasoning like this. And, yes, it’s fiction, but it translates to the real world because that’s often the mentality used to denigrate POC. And Daenerys is no different here. I understand that she grew up listening to Viserys’s stories, but I can’t understand how she cannot take responsibility for her own actions. Does she not have agency? She clearly does. She has more agency than any other women in the course of the story. Daenerys is the biggest hypocrite of the entire series. There was an amazing video of all of Daenerys’s hypocritical moments, if we add up all of the other characters hypocritical moments it still wouldn’t be a tenth of Daenerys’s total hypocritical moments. If we can hold others accountable, I’m sure we can discard white feminism and call out Daenerys for what she is – a hypocritical tyrant.
People hold Daenerys to a high standard because she holds other people to a high standard that she herself doesn’t meet. That is the epitome of hypocrisy. Jon didn’t have to be talked out of mass murdering a city nor did he mass murder a city for others to be questioning his sanity. It has nothing to do with gender here, for once. It has everything to do with Daenerys herself.
When the bells happened the first person my head went to was Jon Connington. They already seem to trigger him and he doesn’t like the small folk for hiding Robert so I think he’d be most likely for a bells break down but who knows anymore? I’ve made my peace with it but I still think the events in the book will play out differently leading up to it. They almost have to because I don’t see how Cersei stays in power long enough to meet Dany…
Of course that’s the great thing about ASOIAF at this point it’s basically the book version of Schrodinger’s cats until Martin actually writes it. Everyone’s theories could be right or could be wrong 🙂
I respect your analysis on Dany. Frankly it has more depth and thought than I can give the show writers credit for. I wrote this before the finale obviously so my thoughts are further turned by the fact almost the last spoken words on Game of Thrones one of the biggest shows in the world was the almost all male (and all white) new Small Council (Bronn for Pete sake! Bronn!) sitting around debating when to reopen the brothels and Tyrion telling his joke. I don’t know if you saw the final script was out? It’s an interesting read if you get the chance I love that stuff and it does provide more insight. Doesn’t change my overall opinion of the writing but its worth a read.
Hopefully soon we’ll all be debating Winds of Winter!
I think it’s too much of a major plot point for it to be anyone other than Dany burning down King’s Landing, otherwise Jon Connington would have had to be introduced the way Euron had to be introduced for Theon’s redemption arc. I’ve seen theories that in the books it might be worse because it could be that fAegon would be on the throne by then and would be more loved by the people of KL as well. So, it might look so much worse when Dany goes up against fAegon than Cersei.
The Small Council is mostly made up of men, not sure why Bronn is there other than for fanservice, but I think of the small council Davos would make a good member. But otherwise, Sansa is the Queen in the North, there is a competent female ruler in one kingdom, and Yara rules the II too. So, in terms of female character endings, I think the series has done well (separate to the journey), and Dany would have made a terrible Queen, even if she remained likeable and alive by the end of the series… ruling well was just not part of her skill set.
I saw the final script, but it seems they’ve removed it from the website, I was on the last few pages as well! The asides and the dialogue were cringeworthy and unrealistic, I mean since when do nobles speak like that? 🧐